Would Poker (with *Zero* real-world currency involved) in an M-Rated (18+) Online game be constituted Online Gambling?Can online gambling sites bias their games?How are MMOs with real money economies allowed to operate?Is online gambling for points legal when those points can be used to purchase merchandise?Whom should I contact if I want to create a legal gambling business with an offshore company?If I turn the real money into fake currency will it still be gambling app?Exploiting online video games illegal, a tort, or allowable under the law?Non real currency gambling website

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Would Poker (with *Zero* real-world currency involved) in an M-Rated (18+) Online game be constituted Online Gambling?


Can online gambling sites bias their games?How are MMOs with real money economies allowed to operate?Is online gambling for points legal when those points can be used to purchase merchandise?Whom should I contact if I want to create a legal gambling business with an offshore company?If I turn the real money into fake currency will it still be gambling app?Exploiting online video games illegal, a tort, or allowable under the law?Non real currency gambling website













1















Players of Red Dead Redemption 2: Online (RDO from now on) have been requesting that Poker or other gambling activities be added to the game.



These were expected to be included, as they are present in the Single Player, and in the predecessor Red Dead Redemption.



Many players of the game are suggesting that Poker or other gambling activities can not be included because of legal restrictions on Online Gambling.



Notably, RDO features two forms of currency. In-game "Cash", and "Gold". While Gold can be purchased with real money (Micro-transactions), the In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be purchased with real money. “Cash” can also not be redeemed for real-world money, prizes, or anything else.



Transferring of currency is currently not something available in the game.



“Cash” is earned in all activities of the game, and no prizes would be tied specifically to the game of poker.



If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?



Of note:



RDO is an M-Rated (18+) game.



With conservative Pot Limits gambling would be a vastly slower way to earn in-game “Cash” compared to other activities in-game.










share|improve this question









New contributor




SchrodingersStat is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
























    1















    Players of Red Dead Redemption 2: Online (RDO from now on) have been requesting that Poker or other gambling activities be added to the game.



    These were expected to be included, as they are present in the Single Player, and in the predecessor Red Dead Redemption.



    Many players of the game are suggesting that Poker or other gambling activities can not be included because of legal restrictions on Online Gambling.



    Notably, RDO features two forms of currency. In-game "Cash", and "Gold". While Gold can be purchased with real money (Micro-transactions), the In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be purchased with real money. “Cash” can also not be redeemed for real-world money, prizes, or anything else.



    Transferring of currency is currently not something available in the game.



    “Cash” is earned in all activities of the game, and no prizes would be tied specifically to the game of poker.



    If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?



    Of note:



    RDO is an M-Rated (18+) game.



    With conservative Pot Limits gambling would be a vastly slower way to earn in-game “Cash” compared to other activities in-game.










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    SchrodingersStat is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






















      1












      1








      1








      Players of Red Dead Redemption 2: Online (RDO from now on) have been requesting that Poker or other gambling activities be added to the game.



      These were expected to be included, as they are present in the Single Player, and in the predecessor Red Dead Redemption.



      Many players of the game are suggesting that Poker or other gambling activities can not be included because of legal restrictions on Online Gambling.



      Notably, RDO features two forms of currency. In-game "Cash", and "Gold". While Gold can be purchased with real money (Micro-transactions), the In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be purchased with real money. “Cash” can also not be redeemed for real-world money, prizes, or anything else.



      Transferring of currency is currently not something available in the game.



      “Cash” is earned in all activities of the game, and no prizes would be tied specifically to the game of poker.



      If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?



      Of note:



      RDO is an M-Rated (18+) game.



      With conservative Pot Limits gambling would be a vastly slower way to earn in-game “Cash” compared to other activities in-game.










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      SchrodingersStat is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      Players of Red Dead Redemption 2: Online (RDO from now on) have been requesting that Poker or other gambling activities be added to the game.



      These were expected to be included, as they are present in the Single Player, and in the predecessor Red Dead Redemption.



      Many players of the game are suggesting that Poker or other gambling activities can not be included because of legal restrictions on Online Gambling.



      Notably, RDO features two forms of currency. In-game "Cash", and "Gold". While Gold can be purchased with real money (Micro-transactions), the In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be purchased with real money. “Cash” can also not be redeemed for real-world money, prizes, or anything else.



      Transferring of currency is currently not something available in the game.



      “Cash” is earned in all activities of the game, and no prizes would be tied specifically to the game of poker.



      If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?



      Of note:



      RDO is an M-Rated (18+) game.



      With conservative Pot Limits gambling would be a vastly slower way to earn in-game “Cash” compared to other activities in-game.







      gambling






      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      SchrodingersStat is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      SchrodingersStat is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 3 hours ago







      SchrodingersStat













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      asked 5 hours ago









      SchrodingersStatSchrodingersStat

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      New contributor





      SchrodingersStat is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      Check out our Code of Conduct.




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3















          If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?




          It is hard to give a comprehensive answer because laws vary significantly among countries. I will focus on U.S. law, but other countries very likely adopt a more stringent definition of gambling (Muslim nations are at one extreme of the spectrum, since their religion prohibits games of chance).



          Under U.S. law (or at least in some of its jurisdictions) the scheme you outline would not meet the legal definition of gambling. The Black's Law Dictionary defines gamble as "[t]o play, or game [...] involv[ing],not only chance, but a hope of gaining something beyond the amount played".



          For a more formalized characterization of gambling, see Com. v. Irwin, 535 Pa. 524, 527 (1993):




          The three elements of gambling are (1) consideration; (2) a result
          determined by chance rather than skill; and (3) reward




          There, the court distinguishes between reward and entertainment in that in the latter "the player can never "win" anything other than a prize worth less than the amount he has played", Id. at 529.



          This is consistent with the case law from other jurisdictions. See Farina v. Kelly, 147 Conn. 444, 449 (1960):




          [A] lottery is characterized by three constituent elements, namely, a
          prize, a chance, and a price. [...] [A]s commonly understood, gambling
          involves not only chance but a hope of gaining something beyond the
          amount played




          Lastly, since




          In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be
          purchased with real money




          it is evident that the purpose of adding Poker the game in the way you describe is pure entertainment, not for a player's expectation of reward as outlined in the aforementioned cases.






          share|improve this answer























          • This assumes tht the in-game "cash" not only cannot be bought, but that it cannot be redeemed for actual money or other things of value. It further seems to assume that in-game "cash " cannot be transferred from one player to another, in a way which might be done as part of an out-of-game transaction for real money.. Otherwise the "cash" might be considered a reward beyond entertainment.

            – David Siegel
            3 hours ago











          • @DavidSiegel Even if in-game "cash" were redeemed for actual money or things of value, it would still be legal as long as the value obtained does not match or exceed the amount the player paid (see the excerpt of Com. v. Irwin at 529). Whether or not players arrange for an out-of-game transaction, that is beyond the [online game] supplier's responsibility.

            – Iñaki Viggers
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @David Siegel, it doesn’t assume that the currency can not be bought or redeemed for actual money or things of value. These are facts stated in my question. Regarding the selling of in-game currency for real currency, there is no way to transfer currency (this is actually my assumed reason why it is not included) however poker style games would certainly create a means for this. However, given that “selling” the currency would violate the game’s rules (as is the case in most online games), would that not matter?

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @DavidSiegel The title clearly says “Zero real-world currency involved.” Although I will say, I appreciate the conservative approach. Given Europe has stricter gambling regulations, a strict view is appreciated.

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @SchrodingersStat : I am just trying to point out the kinds of issues a possibly hostile regulator might raise. Regulators are well aware that some people promote illegal activity while claiming to do no such thing.

            – David Siegel
            2 hours ago










          Your Answer








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          1 Answer
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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          3















          If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?




          It is hard to give a comprehensive answer because laws vary significantly among countries. I will focus on U.S. law, but other countries very likely adopt a more stringent definition of gambling (Muslim nations are at one extreme of the spectrum, since their religion prohibits games of chance).



          Under U.S. law (or at least in some of its jurisdictions) the scheme you outline would not meet the legal definition of gambling. The Black's Law Dictionary defines gamble as "[t]o play, or game [...] involv[ing],not only chance, but a hope of gaining something beyond the amount played".



          For a more formalized characterization of gambling, see Com. v. Irwin, 535 Pa. 524, 527 (1993):




          The three elements of gambling are (1) consideration; (2) a result
          determined by chance rather than skill; and (3) reward




          There, the court distinguishes between reward and entertainment in that in the latter "the player can never "win" anything other than a prize worth less than the amount he has played", Id. at 529.



          This is consistent with the case law from other jurisdictions. See Farina v. Kelly, 147 Conn. 444, 449 (1960):




          [A] lottery is characterized by three constituent elements, namely, a
          prize, a chance, and a price. [...] [A]s commonly understood, gambling
          involves not only chance but a hope of gaining something beyond the
          amount played




          Lastly, since




          In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be
          purchased with real money




          it is evident that the purpose of adding Poker the game in the way you describe is pure entertainment, not for a player's expectation of reward as outlined in the aforementioned cases.






          share|improve this answer























          • This assumes tht the in-game "cash" not only cannot be bought, but that it cannot be redeemed for actual money or other things of value. It further seems to assume that in-game "cash " cannot be transferred from one player to another, in a way which might be done as part of an out-of-game transaction for real money.. Otherwise the "cash" might be considered a reward beyond entertainment.

            – David Siegel
            3 hours ago











          • @DavidSiegel Even if in-game "cash" were redeemed for actual money or things of value, it would still be legal as long as the value obtained does not match or exceed the amount the player paid (see the excerpt of Com. v. Irwin at 529). Whether or not players arrange for an out-of-game transaction, that is beyond the [online game] supplier's responsibility.

            – Iñaki Viggers
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @David Siegel, it doesn’t assume that the currency can not be bought or redeemed for actual money or things of value. These are facts stated in my question. Regarding the selling of in-game currency for real currency, there is no way to transfer currency (this is actually my assumed reason why it is not included) however poker style games would certainly create a means for this. However, given that “selling” the currency would violate the game’s rules (as is the case in most online games), would that not matter?

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @DavidSiegel The title clearly says “Zero real-world currency involved.” Although I will say, I appreciate the conservative approach. Given Europe has stricter gambling regulations, a strict view is appreciated.

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @SchrodingersStat : I am just trying to point out the kinds of issues a possibly hostile regulator might raise. Regulators are well aware that some people promote illegal activity while claiming to do no such thing.

            – David Siegel
            2 hours ago















          3















          If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?




          It is hard to give a comprehensive answer because laws vary significantly among countries. I will focus on U.S. law, but other countries very likely adopt a more stringent definition of gambling (Muslim nations are at one extreme of the spectrum, since their religion prohibits games of chance).



          Under U.S. law (or at least in some of its jurisdictions) the scheme you outline would not meet the legal definition of gambling. The Black's Law Dictionary defines gamble as "[t]o play, or game [...] involv[ing],not only chance, but a hope of gaining something beyond the amount played".



          For a more formalized characterization of gambling, see Com. v. Irwin, 535 Pa. 524, 527 (1993):




          The three elements of gambling are (1) consideration; (2) a result
          determined by chance rather than skill; and (3) reward




          There, the court distinguishes between reward and entertainment in that in the latter "the player can never "win" anything other than a prize worth less than the amount he has played", Id. at 529.



          This is consistent with the case law from other jurisdictions. See Farina v. Kelly, 147 Conn. 444, 449 (1960):




          [A] lottery is characterized by three constituent elements, namely, a
          prize, a chance, and a price. [...] [A]s commonly understood, gambling
          involves not only chance but a hope of gaining something beyond the
          amount played




          Lastly, since




          In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be
          purchased with real money




          it is evident that the purpose of adding Poker the game in the way you describe is pure entertainment, not for a player's expectation of reward as outlined in the aforementioned cases.






          share|improve this answer























          • This assumes tht the in-game "cash" not only cannot be bought, but that it cannot be redeemed for actual money or other things of value. It further seems to assume that in-game "cash " cannot be transferred from one player to another, in a way which might be done as part of an out-of-game transaction for real money.. Otherwise the "cash" might be considered a reward beyond entertainment.

            – David Siegel
            3 hours ago











          • @DavidSiegel Even if in-game "cash" were redeemed for actual money or things of value, it would still be legal as long as the value obtained does not match or exceed the amount the player paid (see the excerpt of Com. v. Irwin at 529). Whether or not players arrange for an out-of-game transaction, that is beyond the [online game] supplier's responsibility.

            – Iñaki Viggers
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @David Siegel, it doesn’t assume that the currency can not be bought or redeemed for actual money or things of value. These are facts stated in my question. Regarding the selling of in-game currency for real currency, there is no way to transfer currency (this is actually my assumed reason why it is not included) however poker style games would certainly create a means for this. However, given that “selling” the currency would violate the game’s rules (as is the case in most online games), would that not matter?

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @DavidSiegel The title clearly says “Zero real-world currency involved.” Although I will say, I appreciate the conservative approach. Given Europe has stricter gambling regulations, a strict view is appreciated.

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @SchrodingersStat : I am just trying to point out the kinds of issues a possibly hostile regulator might raise. Regulators are well aware that some people promote illegal activity while claiming to do no such thing.

            – David Siegel
            2 hours ago













          3












          3








          3








          If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?




          It is hard to give a comprehensive answer because laws vary significantly among countries. I will focus on U.S. law, but other countries very likely adopt a more stringent definition of gambling (Muslim nations are at one extreme of the spectrum, since their religion prohibits games of chance).



          Under U.S. law (or at least in some of its jurisdictions) the scheme you outline would not meet the legal definition of gambling. The Black's Law Dictionary defines gamble as "[t]o play, or game [...] involv[ing],not only chance, but a hope of gaining something beyond the amount played".



          For a more formalized characterization of gambling, see Com. v. Irwin, 535 Pa. 524, 527 (1993):




          The three elements of gambling are (1) consideration; (2) a result
          determined by chance rather than skill; and (3) reward




          There, the court distinguishes between reward and entertainment in that in the latter "the player can never "win" anything other than a prize worth less than the amount he has played", Id. at 529.



          This is consistent with the case law from other jurisdictions. See Farina v. Kelly, 147 Conn. 444, 449 (1960):




          [A] lottery is characterized by three constituent elements, namely, a
          prize, a chance, and a price. [...] [A]s commonly understood, gambling
          involves not only chance but a hope of gaining something beyond the
          amount played




          Lastly, since




          In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be
          purchased with real money




          it is evident that the purpose of adding Poker the game in the way you describe is pure entertainment, not for a player's expectation of reward as outlined in the aforementioned cases.






          share|improve this answer














          If Poker was to be included, and restricted to only In-Game "Cash", would this be an issue regarding Online Gambling laws in a significant number of countries?




          It is hard to give a comprehensive answer because laws vary significantly among countries. I will focus on U.S. law, but other countries very likely adopt a more stringent definition of gambling (Muslim nations are at one extreme of the spectrum, since their religion prohibits games of chance).



          Under U.S. law (or at least in some of its jurisdictions) the scheme you outline would not meet the legal definition of gambling. The Black's Law Dictionary defines gamble as "[t]o play, or game [...] involv[ing],not only chance, but a hope of gaining something beyond the amount played".



          For a more formalized characterization of gambling, see Com. v. Irwin, 535 Pa. 524, 527 (1993):




          The three elements of gambling are (1) consideration; (2) a result
          determined by chance rather than skill; and (3) reward




          There, the court distinguishes between reward and entertainment in that in the latter "the player can never "win" anything other than a prize worth less than the amount he has played", Id. at 529.



          This is consistent with the case law from other jurisdictions. See Farina v. Kelly, 147 Conn. 444, 449 (1960):




          [A] lottery is characterized by three constituent elements, namely, a
          prize, a chance, and a price. [...] [A]s commonly understood, gambling
          involves not only chance but a hope of gaining something beyond the
          amount played




          Lastly, since




          In-Game "Cash" has zero interaction with Gold, and can not be
          purchased with real money




          it is evident that the purpose of adding Poker the game in the way you describe is pure entertainment, not for a player's expectation of reward as outlined in the aforementioned cases.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 4 hours ago









          Iñaki ViggersIñaki Viggers

          9,46021127




          9,46021127












          • This assumes tht the in-game "cash" not only cannot be bought, but that it cannot be redeemed for actual money or other things of value. It further seems to assume that in-game "cash " cannot be transferred from one player to another, in a way which might be done as part of an out-of-game transaction for real money.. Otherwise the "cash" might be considered a reward beyond entertainment.

            – David Siegel
            3 hours ago











          • @DavidSiegel Even if in-game "cash" were redeemed for actual money or things of value, it would still be legal as long as the value obtained does not match or exceed the amount the player paid (see the excerpt of Com. v. Irwin at 529). Whether or not players arrange for an out-of-game transaction, that is beyond the [online game] supplier's responsibility.

            – Iñaki Viggers
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @David Siegel, it doesn’t assume that the currency can not be bought or redeemed for actual money or things of value. These are facts stated in my question. Regarding the selling of in-game currency for real currency, there is no way to transfer currency (this is actually my assumed reason why it is not included) however poker style games would certainly create a means for this. However, given that “selling” the currency would violate the game’s rules (as is the case in most online games), would that not matter?

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @DavidSiegel The title clearly says “Zero real-world currency involved.” Although I will say, I appreciate the conservative approach. Given Europe has stricter gambling regulations, a strict view is appreciated.

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @SchrodingersStat : I am just trying to point out the kinds of issues a possibly hostile regulator might raise. Regulators are well aware that some people promote illegal activity while claiming to do no such thing.

            – David Siegel
            2 hours ago

















          • This assumes tht the in-game "cash" not only cannot be bought, but that it cannot be redeemed for actual money or other things of value. It further seems to assume that in-game "cash " cannot be transferred from one player to another, in a way which might be done as part of an out-of-game transaction for real money.. Otherwise the "cash" might be considered a reward beyond entertainment.

            – David Siegel
            3 hours ago











          • @DavidSiegel Even if in-game "cash" were redeemed for actual money or things of value, it would still be legal as long as the value obtained does not match or exceed the amount the player paid (see the excerpt of Com. v. Irwin at 529). Whether or not players arrange for an out-of-game transaction, that is beyond the [online game] supplier's responsibility.

            – Iñaki Viggers
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @David Siegel, it doesn’t assume that the currency can not be bought or redeemed for actual money or things of value. These are facts stated in my question. Regarding the selling of in-game currency for real currency, there is no way to transfer currency (this is actually my assumed reason why it is not included) however poker style games would certainly create a means for this. However, given that “selling” the currency would violate the game’s rules (as is the case in most online games), would that not matter?

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @DavidSiegel The title clearly says “Zero real-world currency involved.” Although I will say, I appreciate the conservative approach. Given Europe has stricter gambling regulations, a strict view is appreciated.

            – SchrodingersStat
            3 hours ago






          • 1





            @SchrodingersStat : I am just trying to point out the kinds of issues a possibly hostile regulator might raise. Regulators are well aware that some people promote illegal activity while claiming to do no such thing.

            – David Siegel
            2 hours ago
















          This assumes tht the in-game "cash" not only cannot be bought, but that it cannot be redeemed for actual money or other things of value. It further seems to assume that in-game "cash " cannot be transferred from one player to another, in a way which might be done as part of an out-of-game transaction for real money.. Otherwise the "cash" might be considered a reward beyond entertainment.

          – David Siegel
          3 hours ago





          This assumes tht the in-game "cash" not only cannot be bought, but that it cannot be redeemed for actual money or other things of value. It further seems to assume that in-game "cash " cannot be transferred from one player to another, in a way which might be done as part of an out-of-game transaction for real money.. Otherwise the "cash" might be considered a reward beyond entertainment.

          – David Siegel
          3 hours ago













          @DavidSiegel Even if in-game "cash" were redeemed for actual money or things of value, it would still be legal as long as the value obtained does not match or exceed the amount the player paid (see the excerpt of Com. v. Irwin at 529). Whether or not players arrange for an out-of-game transaction, that is beyond the [online game] supplier's responsibility.

          – Iñaki Viggers
          3 hours ago





          @DavidSiegel Even if in-game "cash" were redeemed for actual money or things of value, it would still be legal as long as the value obtained does not match or exceed the amount the player paid (see the excerpt of Com. v. Irwin at 529). Whether or not players arrange for an out-of-game transaction, that is beyond the [online game] supplier's responsibility.

          – Iñaki Viggers
          3 hours ago




          1




          1





          @David Siegel, it doesn’t assume that the currency can not be bought or redeemed for actual money or things of value. These are facts stated in my question. Regarding the selling of in-game currency for real currency, there is no way to transfer currency (this is actually my assumed reason why it is not included) however poker style games would certainly create a means for this. However, given that “selling” the currency would violate the game’s rules (as is the case in most online games), would that not matter?

          – SchrodingersStat
          3 hours ago





          @David Siegel, it doesn’t assume that the currency can not be bought or redeemed for actual money or things of value. These are facts stated in my question. Regarding the selling of in-game currency for real currency, there is no way to transfer currency (this is actually my assumed reason why it is not included) however poker style games would certainly create a means for this. However, given that “selling” the currency would violate the game’s rules (as is the case in most online games), would that not matter?

          – SchrodingersStat
          3 hours ago




          1




          1





          @DavidSiegel The title clearly says “Zero real-world currency involved.” Although I will say, I appreciate the conservative approach. Given Europe has stricter gambling regulations, a strict view is appreciated.

          – SchrodingersStat
          3 hours ago





          @DavidSiegel The title clearly says “Zero real-world currency involved.” Although I will say, I appreciate the conservative approach. Given Europe has stricter gambling regulations, a strict view is appreciated.

          – SchrodingersStat
          3 hours ago




          1




          1





          @SchrodingersStat : I am just trying to point out the kinds of issues a possibly hostile regulator might raise. Regulators are well aware that some people promote illegal activity while claiming to do no such thing.

          – David Siegel
          2 hours ago





          @SchrodingersStat : I am just trying to point out the kinds of issues a possibly hostile regulator might raise. Regulators are well aware that some people promote illegal activity while claiming to do no such thing.

          – David Siegel
          2 hours ago










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