What can we say about Classical Nahuatl ? Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Are there any papers about the calling contour (minor third, vocative chant) in Italian?What about the sound change initial n -> initial l?What did the Greeks and Romans believe about language relationships?Is Classical Hebrew an Indo-European language?Irregular penultimate stress in English words from classical sourcesRomance languages - “to mean” as “to want to say”Term for the set of rules about where sounds can occurWhat did Sapir intend to say when he wrote that 'whither' repeats all of 'where'?Do we have to revise what we know about Thracian?Question about the proto-Germanic root hampijaną

Fit odd number of triplets in a measure?

Should man-made satellites feature an intelligent inverted "cow catcher"?

Why not use the yoke to control yaw, as well as pitch and roll?

Vertical ranges of Column Plots in 12

Why complex landing gears are used instead of simple, reliable and light weight muscle wire or shape memory alloys?

Why are current probes so expensive?

Why are two-digit numbers in Jonathan Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" (1726) written in "German style"?

malloc in main() or malloc in another function: allocating memory for a struct and its members

Why did Bronn offer to be Tyrion Lannister's champion in trial by combat?

As a dual citizen, my US passport will expire one day after traveling to the US. Will this work?

Why can't fire hurt Daenerys but it did to Jon Snow in season 1?

How to ask rejected full-time candidates to apply to teach individual courses?

One-one communication

Determine whether an integer is a palindrome

Noise in Eigenvalues plot

Baking rewards as operations

What did Turing mean when saying that "machines cannot give rise to surprises" is due to a fallacy?

NIntegrate on a solution of a matrix ODE

Is the time—manner—place ordering of adverbials an oversimplification?

Did John Wesley plagiarize Matthew Henry...?

Where did Ptolemy compare the Earth to the distance of fixed stars?

Is this Kuo-toa homebrew race balanced?

Twin's vs. Twins'

Does the universe have a fixed centre of mass?



What can we say about Classical Nahuatl ?



Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Are there any papers about the calling contour (minor third, vocative chant) in Italian?What about the sound change initial n -> initial l?What did the Greeks and Romans believe about language relationships?Is Classical Hebrew an Indo-European language?Irregular penultimate stress in English words from classical sourcesRomance languages - “to mean” as “to want to say”Term for the set of rules about where sounds can occurWhat did Sapir intend to say when he wrote that 'whither' repeats all of 'where'?Do we have to revise what we know about Thracian?Question about the proto-Germanic root hampijaną










1















Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago
















1















Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago














1












1








1








Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.










share|improve this question
















Nahuatl has two sibilant fricatives, now pronounced something like [s] and [ʃ]. The standard orthography was developed by Spanish colonizers, who wrote /ʃ/ as x, and /s/ as c before a front vowel, z elsewhere. (There's also [t͡ʃ], written ch.)



But since all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].



Do we know what this sound was? There unfortunately weren't trained linguists around transcribing Classical Nahuatl, but the Spanish transcription might be enough to make a good guess.







phonology historical-linguistics romance-languages






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 16 mins ago









Mark Beadles

5,65411943




5,65411943










asked 8 hours ago









DraconisDraconis

13.2k12055




13.2k12055







  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago













  • 3





    Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago








3




3





Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

– Nardog
7 hours ago






Please do not use monospace for IPA. Not only is it nonstandard and completely redundant as the IPA is already distinguised from the running text by the brackets and slashes, it makes some IPA symbols appear as empty boxes on some devices.

– Nardog
7 hours ago











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2














The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






share|improve this answer
































    0















    all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




    This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






    share|improve this answer























      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "312"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flinguistics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f31225%2fwhat-can-we-say-about-classical-nahuatl-z%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      2














      The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



      There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






      share|improve this answer





























        2














        The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



        There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






        share|improve this answer



























          2












          2








          2







          The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



          There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).






          share|improve this answer















          The reason that Spanish linguists transcribed the phoneme /s/ in Nahuatl as z/c(i/e) rather than s is because at that time Spanish had two alveolar sibilant phonemes, an apical /s̺/ written s and a laminal /s̻/ written z/c(i/e), and that the dental or alveolar sibilant in the Nahuatl spoken at that time was acoustically closer to the laminal than apical /s/. Since that time, in much of the Spanish spoken in Spain, /s̻/ has developed into /θ/, leaving only one alveolar sibilant.



          There is a similar reason for why post-alveolar /ʃ/ is written x in the Classical Nahuatl orthography the Spanish introduced. At the time, in Early Modern Spanish, what is now for the most part written j and pronounced /x/ was actually pronounced /ʃ/ and written x. This later went on to merge with /ʒ/, written g(i/e).







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 4 hours ago

























          answered 5 hours ago









          MiztliMiztli

          493313




          493313





















              0















              all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




              This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






              share|improve this answer



























                0















                all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




                This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






                share|improve this answer

























                  0












                  0








                  0








                  all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




                  This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.






                  share|improve this answer














                  all stages of Spanish definitely had s for [s], it seems clear that the sound the first transcribers heard definitely wasn't [s].




                  This seems like an oversimplification. Fricatives developed in different ways in different Spanish dialects: some had seseo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [s]) some had ceceo (both <s> and <c/z> merged as [θ]) and some had distinction. The use of [θ] for <c/z> is thought to be a later development from some kind of sibilant distinct from the one used for <s>. The Iberian (but not Romance) language Basque still uses <z> for a voiceless sibilant with a quality distinct from <s>. IPA [s] isn't precise enough to notate the difference between the two Basque sounds: it's necessary to resort to diacritics. The IPA symbol [s] seems likely enough as a broad transcription of the Classical Nahuatl sound.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 5 hours ago









                  sumelicsumelic

                  10.3k12156




                  10.3k12156



























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded
















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Linguistics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flinguistics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f31225%2fwhat-can-we-say-about-classical-nahuatl-z%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Dapidodigma demeter Subspecies | Notae | Tabula navigationisDapidodigmaAfrotropical Butterflies: Lycaenidae - Subtribe IolainaAmplifica

                      Constantinus Vanšenkin Nexus externi | Tabula navigationisБольшая российская энциклопедияAmplifica

                      Gaius Norbanus Flaccus (consul 38 a.C.n.) Index De gente | De cursu honorum | Notae | Fontes | Si vis plura legere | Tabula navigationisHic legere potes